#349 – Mastering the Amazon Game: Fernando’s Insights for Growth to 9-Figures
In episode 349 of the AM/PM Podcast, Kevin and Fernando discuss:
- 02:07– How Did Fernando Get Started In The E-commerce Space?
- 03:32 – Building A Software To Help Their 8-Figure Amazon Business
- 05:41 – A Problem That Exists With Amazon Attribution
- 07:18 – Trying To Start Their Own E-commerce Platform
- 10:45 – Making An Exit, Restarting, And Goal Is To Hit 9-Figures
- 12:52 – What Are Your Goals As An Amazon Brand CEO?
- 14:07 – Why Did He Pick The Supplements Category?
- 19:33 – “Our Focus Is Building A Great Company”
- 21:05 – Double Down On What You Know
- 22:09– Difference Between Selling On Amazon In 2014 And Now
- 23:35 – What Working For Fernando For Launches And Getting Reviews?
- 26:48 – Running An Amazon Strategy Firm
- 27:27 – Fernando’s Advice For New Sellers
- 28:29 – The Best Plan To Hit 9-Figures In Sales
- 32:11 – The Benefits Of Working With A Business Partner
- 35:25 – Advice For Sellers Who Are Aiming For Growth To 8-9 Figures
- 42:17 – How To Reach Out To Fernando Campos
- 43:16 – This Week’s Golden Nugget Tip
Transcript
Kevin King:
This is episode 349 of the AM/PM Podcast. This week, my guest is Fernando Campos. He’s an OG when it comes to selling on Amazon. Been doing it since around 2014. He’s grown a company to eight figures and exited it. He’s grown on his way to growing a company to nine figures. Now he’s also grown a software company in the space and sold it. Just a super, super smart guy. And the way they’re doing things on this way to nine figures is not what everybody else is doing. Everybody else is focusing on creating brands and avatars and all that kind of stuff, but that’s not what they’re doing. And he’s pretty confident that he’s gonna be able to hit nine figures doing it a slightly different way. He’ll talk about that and more. And don’t forget this summer, I’m debuting the Billion Dollar Sellers Newsletter. It’s 100% free for listeners of this podcast. So be sure to go to billiondollarsellers.com and put in your email address and name to get on the beta list so you can be one of the first to get this brand new newsletter. It’s gonna be chock full of advice and tips, and strategies and hacks for e-comm and Amazon sellers, billiondollarsellers.com. Fernando Campos. Welcome to the AM/PM Podcast. How you doing, man?
Fernando:
Good, Kevin, it’s great to see you. It’s been a long time.
Kevin King:
It has been. We were just talking before we started that it’s been like at least four years, I guess, since we saw each other at an event, but I think we’ve known each other a little bit or at least known of each other a little bit longer than that.
Fernando:
Yeah. It’s been too long for sure, but yeah, it’s nice to see your face.
Kevin King:
Now, you, when did you actually get into this whole e-commerce game? I know you’ve been in it since, since I have. Pretty much. So at least 2015 or did you start before that?
Fernando:
We started in 2014, actually towards the end of 2014 is when our when we actually got into Amazon
Kevin King:
And it was like three of you that were partners or something, right?
Fernando:
So the actual, our physical products business was just Nick and I. But, and then I think what, I guess what built more of like, I guess our identity within this space was when we did Seller Tradecraft with Anthony. And then, so we were partners specifically in Seller Tradecraft and then kind of pivoted that like, or kind of leverage that audience specifically to help us grow pixel five in the three.
Kevin King:
Seller Tradecraft was training, right?
Fernando:
Exactly. Yeah. It was like kinda started like with a bigger Facebook group, and then we kind of built out the YouTube channel as well. So it was kind of yeah, a community. And then we started kind of marketing a course, which did pretty well, actually. We were pretty excited about it. But when we kind got the opportunity to start Pixely and partnered with Leo Lemon, we, we realized like the bigger opportunity was to build the SaaS product. And so we kind of diverted most of our like, resources and effort towards that.
Kevin King:
So you kinda just wound down the Seller Tradecraft and focus it more on the the SaaS product? Yeah. I
Fernando:
Mean, we still were pretty engaged with Seller Tradecraft community for a long time to kinda help kickstart Pixelfy and drive a lot of the awareness specifically for Pixelfy. But we stopped actively promoting the course and try and then naturally just kind of I think one on one replace the other in terms of like our effort and focus for sure.
Kevin King:
That software came out of a need that you saw in your own business. Cause you guys were doing eight figures, right?
Fernando:
We’re well into the eight figures at the time.
Kevin King:
And, and so you saw a need when you’re launching products and stuff, where some, some things, and it’s called deep linking, I believe. Just weren’t registering or weren’t working Right. When you’d be on a mobile device and go into an app or something like that. What that was part of it. Right.
Fernando:
Exactly. Yeah. So I mean, I think at the time, well, you were allowed to do super or I guess it was not necessarily you were allowed, but people were using super URLs pretty consistently. And so I think there was just always questions around what’s the best super URL. And so I think what Pixelfy did really well was it made it extremely easy to create a new super URL, but then also allow you to pixel your audience, which was massive.
Kevin King:
So you could put like a Facebook and a Google Pixel together and so that you could re-target them on those channels.
Fernando:
Exactly, yeah. Which was huge. And then it, it was also coinciding with kinda like the rise of ManyChat. And so I think that was also huge at the time in terms of people trying to figure out chatbots. So, and then you know, again, having like the deep links, like you were mentioning earlier, where it would natively open, let’s say the Amazon app was really helpful, so that if you’re having a conversation with someone through Messenger, then instead of them clicking on a link and then having to go to the browser and log into Amazon, which is obviously gonna create a lot of friction, then a deep link would automatically open the Amazon app natively on your iPhone, which makes it a much better, you know customer, like, I guess flow. And so that was like a lot of what we were like well known for at the time.
Kevin King:
Yeah. And that’s a problem that still exists today with Amazon. Amazon attribution and they’ll give you that 10% bonus, you know, if you, if the, you put some certain tags and link it over to your storefront or whatever. But that stuff, people are complaining it’s not accurate. And a lot of times it doesn’t work on mobile because there’s no deep linking on it. So, so a lot of people are like, I’m only getting half of the sales. I should be, you know, maybe I’m just better off just being an associate, an affiliate and taking commission off of, off of everything that’s put into the cart rather than just the 10% off of my stuff. And because I’m missing half of it already. And it’s a valid argument.
Kevin King:
I know some people that tested that and they said, yeah, to heck with attribution, I’m, I’m just gonna be an affiliate. And you know, if someone adds my product to their cart, and I’m attribution, I get that 10%. That’s nice. But at the same time, if they also go and buy a tv I don’t get any piece of that versus if I’m an associate or Amazon calls affiliates, associates, if I’m that, I get a piece of that. And so they did the math and they’re like, we can actually make more money by not being in attribution, then if we are doing the affiliate stuff and so they quit on Amazon, that may change as Amazon fixes the, the issue with like the deep linking maybe those numbers will change, but yeah, that’s one of the problems right now. But that’s cool how you guys were able to solve that. So how did you actually get drawn into this e-commerce business back in 2014? Did you just see a webinar somewhere or and say, Hey, I’m gonna jump on this, or what, what brought you into it?
Fernando:
So my business partner and I came from Tech, and so we’d both done well, like, I was employed number two and then the head of sales at like a Y Combinator backed company back then. And so I got basically paid to learn how to start a business, you know, everything from hiring salespeople to account managers, like helping with marketing like customer success, all that kind of stuff. And so I think being there that early basically gave me the confidence of like, okay, I can start a business for sure. And then, you know, Nick was one of my best friends. We we had worked together prior, and so we, we knew that we wanted to go into e-commerce because a lot of our closest friends had done well, whether it was on Kickstarter or on their own e-commerce platforms. And we knew kind of as business guys that we would do better in e-commerce than we would in tech, not being technical, not being able to develop software. And so we knew that overall we were gonna be in e-commerce for like, for the next kind of company that we build. And then and then truthfully, we kind of messed around with like our own Shopify website for about five months.
Kevin King:
Oh, really? You tried to develop your own type of website to actually be your own marketplace kind of thing?
Fernando:
Exactly, yeah. Kind of our own retailer, you know, kind of buying products at wholesale and then reselling them like through through our own platform, which was okay. You know, we grew our users really quickly. I think we were growing like, I dunno, five to 10% week over week. But when we modeled out our numbers, we just realized like, oh, man, to going back to making like, I think a hundred grand a year, which we were making more than that at the time, like prior to quitting. But like, just going back to that like kind of minimum, I guess, quality of life, it was gonna take 18 months. And then I was like, I’m gonna run outta money way faster than that. And so we kind of put the, the passion project kind of on pause, and we’re like, okay, we just need to make money.
Fernando:
And so we had heard of a lot of people making money, like buying and selling on eBay which is kind of funny now, like in hindsight, you know, and there was like Terra Peak and you just kind of hear of people doing well there. But, and then, so we started researching that model, and then, you know, as we kind of we’re starting to research it a little bit more. Like we get an Amazon package at my business partner’s place, and then he brings it inside and we’re just kinda like looking at each other. It’s like, wait, why are we gonna sell on eBay if we buy everything on Amazon? It’s like, clearly where everything is moving. And then, so at the time we were like, I don’t even know if you can sell on Amazon truthfully. And yeah, basically we kind of googled around found like, you know, there was like the amazing selling machine at the time. And like while we didn’t like take the, the course, we ended up kind of watching a lot of like YouTube and then hiring our coach specifically in the early days that really helped us kind of get started in the space, but that’s kind of how we fell into Amazon.
Kevin King:
And that evolved over a number of years into eight figures? Or did you guys Were pushing nine figures.
Fernando:
We’ve hit cumulatively nine figures well into the nine figures, but like annually we’ve never hit nine figures yet. Hopefully soon.
Kevin King:
Now you’re still running that business, right? Or have you sold part of it?
Fernando:
So we sold a lot of our home and kitchen brands back in 2020, and then we also sold Pixelfy in 2021. So we’ve exited those two, and then now we’re building more of a portfolio of supplement brands. And then we also have the agency marketplace ops.
Kevin King:
So even after selling those two, you’re still on pace to hit with what’s left, hit nine figures.
Fernando:
So we actually sold pretty much everything back then, and then restarted it, and then, yeah.
Kevin King:
Okay. So you, you took a whole exit and then it’s like, all right, let’s, now we know what we’re doing, start fresh, we got some good capital behind us.
Fernando:
We kept a little bit, we kept like a small piece, but, and then and then yeah, we’ve rebuilt yeah, the, the supplements portfolio, so it’s a little bit more cohesive versus before we were in all these different categories. And then yeah, now we’re, we’re, we’re we’re still, we still have a long ways away to get to, to nine figures, but we, yeah, we’re definitely into the eight figures. And yeah, that’s what we’re building towards.
Kevin King:
So in the home and kitchen brands that you sold, did you, were those to aggregators or strategic buyers, or who did you
Fernando:
Aggregators. Yep.
Kevin King:
Aggregators. How are those brands? Have you checked in on them? How are they doing now?
Fernando:
They’ve done really well. You know, I think we were really focused on just the US market where they had the capital to expand to other international markets. And so I think they’ve done well. It was, it was a great product line, had great reviews and great margins truthfully. And so they were able to do really well with just more time and attention. Thankfully, we didn’t build one of those brands that like, kind of like, I dunno, plummets by 50% overnight. And so yeah, I think with kind of, with global reviews and everything, they were able to do really well.
Kevin King:
So was that that brand, was it like did y’all put a lot of effort into the branding, or was it just more like, let’s just find some stuff in home and kitchen that sells and then we can dominate on?
Fernando:
Yeah, good question. It was more than the latter.
Kevin King:
It was more of a hodgepodge of products rather than a true, like, branding effort.
Fernando:
Yeah. I would say we’re not the necessarily the best at like creating like a true, like omnichannel brand yet. It’s something that we definitely want to focus on, I think. But yeah, I think as of right now, we’re definitely like experts on Amazon. And so I think when I think about it, you’re, you’re kind of two primary goals, right? As like a, as a e-commerce brand, it’s one is you’re increasing. And I didn’t make this up, I actually just learned this from like a, a YPO buddy the other day. But that was really insightful. It’s like, you know, you have two kind of goals as a ceo, right? You have one to increase your cashflow, and number two is to build a moat. And there’s very few things, especially when you’re in the early stages that are doing both, because naturally, like you’re kind of investing in your cashflow in the short term to build your moat for the long term, if that makes sense. And so I think we’re at the point right now where we’re starting to like divert more resources towards like that, like long-term moat. But I would say like 80, 90% of our effort is really just focused on increasing that cash flow. And so that’s typically what we’ve done and just kind of how we think about things.
Kevin King:
So with the supplement brand, you’re still just focusing, you’re saying you’re still just focusing more on the cash flow than actually truly bringing it into someone, an avatar or lifestyle or something like that?
Fernando:
Yeah, I think as of right now, but we do have the advantage that we have like multiple brands, and so some kind of make more sense to, to build like a buyer persona around and create community and try to get to like the, you know, thousand true fans, things like that. But yeah, I would say all of them right now are like more Amazon native brands, I would say.
Kevin King:
So why did you go into, after selling, why did you go into supplements? That’s one of the most difficult, hardest, cutthroat categories. Huge margins on paper. You know, buy, buy a bottle of something for a buck or two, two and sell it for 30 or 40. But by the time you add in a $50 PPC cost on each one, I mean, yeah, you can make it if the people stick with it are buying it every month, I guess lifetime value. But what, what made you guys to say, you know, what the hell with it? We’re gonna go in here and we’re gonna compete where all the nasty guys are.
Fernando:
Yeah. You know, I mean, it can be nasty. I think you’re totally right. I think, you know, I think there’s certain categories that are worse than others for sure. Like, you know, I think always like the CBD category, the, the keto testosterone boosters, those have always been really notorious. And so those aren’t really the ones that will like, play in. But I think when it came down to is we really liked the consumables idea just naturally because you have repeat purchases, you have more predictability, and then, yeah, like you said, supplements have great margins. So that was a big piece. But then there’s also, we had like, really cool ideas of how to differentiate. We, we like the the, like the repeat order like frequency where some products, you know, maybe in consumables might get ordered once every four months, every six months, maybe even every nine months. Where supplements, we saw that based on the data that we have, it’s actually reordered a little bit more frequently. And so we were pretty excited about all those kind of pieces. And so that’s kinda why we moved into it.
Kevin King:
So when you’re launching a new supplement, how do you forecast that? If you’re launching a new supplement I’m just say it was a testosterone booster. I know that’s not what you’re doing necessarily, right? But let’s say it was, you’re like, I’m gonna go into this field, I think I’ve got good margins here. I’ve got a good product, it’s made in the USA, or whatever with all natural ingredients and all that kind of good stuff. And I go into it and I see the cost, and I know I’m not gonna make any money on this initial sale on Amazon. The only way I’m gonna make money is on future buys, but I’m not sure how often people are gonna buy this. One, I don’t know if my product is better than anybody else’s, or what if other competition comes in and undercuts me and people switch cuz it’s the same ingredients. How do you forecast that out to know this is a good risk or this is a good, we should, we should give this a shot? Or do you just give it a shot and roll the dice and cut what doesn’t work?
Fernando:
Yeah, I think it’s more of the latter. I think it’s actually really similar in a sense to launching a home and kitchen product or any like, kind of one time purchase product that you would typically buy from China. You know, you might start with whatever, 3000, 5,000, 7,000 units, just depending on your size and how big you’re going into the product. But I, I would say I you, in terms of like forecasting, which, which is a great question. I mean, we’re just looking at the daily sales rate and how that’s changing over time. And, and so naturally like as the product becomes more and more mature, then, you know, subscribe and save is helping you kind of stabilize like, or increasing your floor in terms of sales, right? Because you have more and more subscribers, ideally, as long as you’re delivering a good product. And so I actually do think it helps a lot with pro predictability in the long term, obviously. But in the short term, when you’re trying to figure out that initial order, it’s pretty much the same thing as if you’re ordering a product from China.
Kevin King:
Are you selling these just on Amazon or do you also sell ’em on your own website where you can maybe get the lead off of Amazon, use that as the lead gen, and then send ’em over to your Shopify to, for all the recurring to where you don’t have to pay all those Amazon commissions and everything?
Fernando:
Yeah, we’re really trying to focus better than we have in the past but yet really trying to focus on the channels that we’re best at. And so we don’t really do any like off Amazon like channels, not even Walmart, which I know would be like the easiest next step. Don’t do Shopify, don’t do Amazon, or sorry, we don’t do sh Shopify, we don’t do Walmart. And we’re really just focused on on scaling our Amazon strategy right now or like presence. And then we will probably build out like a more specific d TOC team eventually with that kind of increased cash flow. But then again helping us build that moat for the long term.
Kevin King:
Is this you and Nick again on this one?
Fernando:
Yep. Yep.
Kevin King:
So are you looking, are you trying to build this to sell it? You building this to to support a lifestyle and you’ve invested and put away all the money from your exits or what’s the goal here on this one?
Fernando:
Yeah, it’s a good question.
Kevin King:
Or you just wanna make a difference in people’s lives and give them the best health they could possibly have. What’s your what’s your goal?
Fernando:
You know, I think we don’t really have any intention of selling right now. I think we are really focused on building like a great company. I mean, we’ve had a lot of the same team members, like kind of throughout the exits, which is really cool. We’ve worked together for a long time and, and truthfully it’s just like like a sports team, right? We just get better and better at working together, like working through problems. My relationship with Nick is like stronger than ever, but then also with a lot of the people that have worked with us for five plus years going some, some going on six now, which is really cool. And so I think, yeah, there’s nothing really that either of us are that excited to go sell and go work on something else. We don’t have that next like, project truthfully.
Fernando:
And so, yeah, I think a lot of the motivation now comes from from taking care of the team, like creating a better lifestyle for them, I think helping them hit like, you know, kind of financial milestones or, you know, helping them like buy their first homes, stuff like that. But yeah, I mean, I think also for our customers, like, yeah, I think like this is like the best way that we know how to like, create change, I think in terms of like healthy habits and, you know, can we create better content around that, create better products. And so I think all of that is really kind of what drives us, at least right now.
Kevin King:
Well, I think there’s a lot of truth and validity, what you’re saying, double down on what, you know, you say, and you’re an expert on Amazon, that’s what, you know, we’re not gonna go try to figure out Walmart right now, Shopify right now, because if we take those same resources in that same time of our people and yourself and put that to Amazon, we can get more value squeezing Amazon than we can going over to Shopify or Walmart, which is a valid re a very valid concern and, and a reason why a lot of people maybe shouldn’t be trying to spread themselves too thin. But on the flip side of that, people say you have all your eggs in one basket. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, if Amazon gets, gets finicky with you you’re down and you have nothing else to go to. But I always say that nothing else to go if you are on Shopify or Walmart, that’s not much to go to in most cases. So it’s not like you know, you might stay laying off a hundred people, you might lay off 90 if you’re on Walmart or Shopify, but what do you see it’s different now versus when you started? How’s, how has this Amazon game evolved over the last nine years since you started?
Fernando:
Oh, yeah, it’s a good question. I mean, it’s night and day, right? I think, yeah, ultimately when, you know, when we started back in, you know, 20 14, 20 15, basically anybody with a pulse could probably do pretty well. I think the bar was pretty low. And then I would just say it just gets more and more competitive, but the opportunity also becomes bigger over time. And so you don’t need to have whatever, 30% market share over your category. Maybe 10% is bigger today just because like Amazon is so much bigger. And I would just say that just like, I think the stuff that kind of worked back then obviously doesn’t work as nearly as much now. Obviously you can’t buy reviews, you can’t do superheros. You can’t do nearly as much like gray hat tactics. And so you had to like, it’s now way more important than ever to find a balance between Yeah, again, like optimizing for cashflow and building that like long term moat and then figuring out how do you yeah. How do you build teams? How do you like, build like a, a strong brand identity identity? How do you yeah, yeah. How do you navigate this more challenging and competitive landscape of Amazon? For sure.
Kevin King:
When people always are asking when they see sellers like yourself they’re just crushing it. They’re like, what’s working today when it comes to launching a product and getting, getting reviews? I mean, like you said, a lot of the things in the past you can’t do anymore. What are you seeing that’s working? Is it just sell more and just play the odds game that 2% of the people are gonna review? Or is it and when it comes to launching, especially in the, in the supplements space, that’s difficult. It takes some money and a good list or a lot of advertising or combination of the two. What’s working for you guys when it comes to launching and, and getting reviews?
Fernando:
Yeah, good question. Yeah, reviews is tough, honestly. I think you know, what we’ve done, a big switch that we’ve focused on is, is really getting better at product quality, like right outta the gate. And so our, our process is a lot longer now than it used to be. And so we’re doing like, kind of more like focus group taste testing, if it’s like a liquid. We just like, really like whatever dot every, I cross every t in terms of the products where in the past, like, especially when we’re doing the home and kitchen brand, our like KPI was, we need to launch 15 products a month. And so naturally, if you’re trying to just hit that many targets, like you’re not as focused on product quality, you’re just really focused on placing orders, getting them shipped here, creating listings and, and letting them go live.
Fernando:
And so I think now, again, really just making sure that the product will organically get good reviews. I think in certain categories you can use Vine, which I think is really helpful to get that like initial, like whatever, 20 or 30 reviews over over time, so then that can help. But I think besides that, and like the automated rating requests, like there’s really nothing else that you can truthfully do that’s not gonna be like basically black hat. And so, but I think the important thing that we really try to do is again, like really focus on product quality right up like right outta the gate and also just really differentiate the product. And so where, you know, before, like actually I was a huge proponent of just like me Too products or these commoditized products that didn’t really have as much differentiation, but now obviously it is just such a different space it’s way more competitive. A lot of really sophisticated D2C players have moved on to selling on Amazon because of like the iOS iOS 14 update. And so it’s just a way more saturated space. And so you just need better, more differentiated today
Kevin King:
Besides Amazon, aren’t you lending your brain power to a few other groups, like in, there’s an influencer marketing company or something. And you also have a, what is it? Marketplace ops, which helps a lot of bigger brands do stuff you’re involved in other than just your own Amazon account and selling. You’re also involved advising some other people too, right?
Fernando:
Yeah. So, yeah Maven Reach is an affordable, like influencer marketing agency that works with a lot of like direct to consumer brands. My wife started that, and so I, I advise and just kind of help her and just, yeah, made like some early introductions, but she runs that, so I’m, I’m, yeah, more of an advisor, not a, like active participant. And then, and then, yeah, I also co-founded Marketplace Ops which is like yeah, an Amazon strategy firm as well.
Kevin King:
That’s been running a while though, right?
Fernando:
Yeah, since 2019 maybe. Yeah. So we’ve had it for, yeah, what is that, four years?
Kevin King:
Yeah,
Fernando:
Yeah. So yeah. It’s gone well. Yeah, we’ve I think, you know, at the time is interesting. Yeah, it was really hard to raise funds like for like a, like pure play Amazon e-commerce brand, right? Like Thrasio hadn’t really like, fully like announced like super huge at the time. And so there wasn’t as many ways to get like lines of credit. And so I even remember like talking to like a bunch of lenders to get, like asked to be loans or like ABLs which is like the, the more traditional way of getting lending for physical products brand. But because our inventory was an fba they wouldn’t like leverage, they wouldn’t use that as part of the calculation in terms of how much collateral you have. And so we had very, very few options specifically for getting like bigger lines of credit, even though we were doing like, I dunno, 30, 35 million a year.
Fernando:
And so basically my plan was, okay, well let’s build an agency. It’ll leverage a lot of our team, it’ll help us improve our, like operations and our process. And now we have all these external stakeholders naturally. But I think like the long term vision is that makes us self financeable. And so basically if we have a, whatever, an extra 150k coming in free cash flow coming from the agency, then you know, we can, we can deploy that 150 k towards launching new products, and then we can, you know, scale from whatever, 10 products a month to 15 products a month without an issue. A lot easier said than done. I will say, like, truthfully, building an agency is very, very challenging. But yeah, I mean, it worked out in the end. I think it ended up being a great investment in terms of like time, but yeah, completely different business for sure.
Kevin King:
So if you were starting. If someone came to you and said, Hey, you know, that seller trade craft that you had for a while, that was pretty good. You guys were really good teachers. Let’s start that back up and teach people what they need to know now. What would be different now to a new person that’s listening to this, that’s just getting started in this game versus what you taught back then? Oh, wow. How would the approach be different or the mindset be different, or what would you, is it a matter of needing more money or more focused on branding? But you said you do guys really don’t focus that much on branding. Or what would, what would be different?
Fernando:
You know, I think I, I think the biggest thing, well, I think you differentiate somehow, right? And I think you can differentiate through brand and like who you’re targeting specifically. You can differentiate through your product. And then at the time, truthfully, in, back in 2018 when we launched that course, I don’t think you really had to differentiate in any way. I think you just had to go after like a very small category where products were doing like five or 10 grand and you’d be able to do like pretty well. As long as it was like a pretty nascent category. I think now you do have to differentiate. So I think that would be my biggest piece of advice is either really focusing on the segment, like the, the customer base, or differentiate your product in a way that really actually makes sense, not like some like useless innovation or change that no one cares about.
Fernando:
And then, I mean, for sure I would increase the the capital requirement. Yeah, and I think one thing that I just wanna note is I think we’ve, we have a lot of experience building companies, building brands, and I think we have a very intentional strategy of building brands later down the line. I don’t know if that’s actually great advice for the majority of your listeners, truthfully. And so I wanted to like throw that out there is that we have like a very specific game plan where we’re trying to go to nine figures, right? And we think this is the best plan. If your goal is to hit seven figures or maybe even eight figures, then that might not be the same steps that you should follow. You know what I mean? And so, but I would say actually to be fair, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t start investing in brand until you’re over at least 3 million in revenue personally. Yeah, yeah, I think 3 million is a good threshold where you can start looking at it, but up until then, you should just be launching more products and just really focusing on the channel, like Amazon and, and getting to that, whatever that is, like 250 K a month in, in Rev.
Kevin King:
So one of the things you’ve been doing since 2014 is you’re working with partners. A lot of people do this on their own. They have a go on their own. How important do you think it is, or what, or what are some of the challenges sometimes or the benefits of actually working with a partner?
Fernando:
Oh, man. I mean, there’s so many benefits. I think, you know, over time, like you kind of find each other’s like groove and you naturally gravitate towards specific things. I mean, for us, like Nick and I had like pretty similar skill sets. Truthfully, I think he had like, maybe a little bit more experience with marketing. I had a little bit more experience with like building teams and sales. But at, at the end of the day, like we were both business guys. We were both new to e-commerce. And then just over time, you know, we kind of gravitated towards certain things. Like I liked thinking more about the future, a lot more kind of building teams, thinking about who we needed to hire. Like a lot of the finance and product development. And then, you know, he enjoyed like a lot more of like kind of the operational side of Amazon, right?
Fernando:
Like like the launching, like advertising, like the design and everything that’s like super crucial to making a product successful on Amazon. And so I think yeah, I, I think it’s hard to be a jack of all trades. I think there’s a ton of examples off the top of my head, like of people that I’ve built crazy nine figure businesses as solo entrepreneurs. But I think there, it’s, it’s more rare. I write, I think it’s very, very difficult to become a master at all those things. And I think it’s harder if you’re doing it today versus like someone that started in whatever, 20 14, 20 15 like we did. I think the, the challenge is, yeah, I mean obviously you have to like learn how to communicate a lot better. You have to like obviously trust more. You have to like kind of hold each other accountable. You know, I think there’s a lot of other like, kind of unspoken challenges, but overall I think it’s a lot more enjoyable. I think it’s like, it’s great when things are good. You have someone to celebrate with when things are bad, you have someone to commiserate with. But, but yeah, I wouldn’t trade it for anything.
Kevin King:
Like you said, one of your skills is actually growing teams and stuff, and that’s something that a lot of sellers stumble on. They can get to that 1 million or maybe 5 million figure fairly easily. You know, if you, if you have a, a general concept of how to sell on Amazon, but it’s taking it to that next level, once you hit that 10 million, 20 million, 50 million, a hundred million, it becomes a different animal. So what would be your advice to people that are growing right now that are maybe they’re, they’re just on that rocket ship and on that curve up. What do they need to look out for? What, what’s most important when setting up systems and SOPs and teams, or what should they be really focused on to maintain that that, that growth to hopefully large aid or nine figures?
Fernando:
Honestly, in my opinion, like, yeah, I think, you know, getting to 3 million, I think you should just be hyper focused on Amazon. That’s just my opinion. You’re not really investing in brand. I think that’s like the early side of when you can start really investing in brand thinking about whatever social media and all that kind of stuff, I think. But truthfully, getting to 10 is just like how well you prioritize truthfully. Like how well can you focus on introducing more great products to like, to your customer base and optimizing your existing, especially your best products to drive up sales over time to get you to 10 million. And I think you can do that with a really, really small team. And and it won’t be that crazy. I think as you started trying to go to like, to 20 to 30 things like that.
Fernando:
Yeah, you obviously need a bigger, better team. I think where a lot of people kind of make mistakes Yeah. That I’ve seen is, yeah, again, chasing too many like rabbits and they don’t execute well. Maybe they, they focus on Walmart and eBay and whatever, Mercado Libre and all of those combined add up to like one or 2% of Amazon because they’re trying to diversify. But like you said earlier, it’s like even if they all add up to let’s say 10% of your business, like, which it would be a massive to success. It’s like, is that really diversified? Because something happens to Amazon, you’re still losing 90, like you said. And so that’s not really a, that’s not really diversification in my opinion. And then I think the next piece is that they hire people. You know, often people hire people in the Philippines or in India and they are just so excited.
Fernando:
Like the salary is so much lower than like a US hire or Canadian hire for instance. And they hire people that are under qualified and then they end up just doing the work themselves. And they’re like, oh, you know, I’m not good at building teams. And so they kind of write it off versus kind of like learning, you know, it’s just like, you know, if a product failed the first time you’re gonna launch, hopefully you’ll launch the second one and try to learn from that. And so I think the same concept with hiring where you get better at it over time, figure out who’s a good employee, who’s like actually like driven and can help take things off your plate. But I think as you, you know, as you scale, you put in stronger managers, you really invest in them, you keep them happy, and then they like really take care of your business.
Fernando:
And I think that’s like where things really flourish. I think a lot of people will make arguments around, you know, you hire for skill or you hire for like personality and aptitude and like, you know, I think obviously having to compromise on either one is not a good situation. So I think you should hire for both truthfully. But I think in certain situations there might be there might be like a lack of management. Like, you know, Amazon’s still new space, so there’s not as much talent out there, right? And in that situation, like I would actually go against the popular advice and I would hire for management experience. And I mean, not, when I say management experience, I’m not like saying like, you’re a player coach, you were like a team lead and you were still doing the job. I mean, like, you’re like a senior manager, you’ve managed like 10, 15 people.
Fernando:
You were not doing execution work anymore. But you know how to like structure like OKRs, you know how to set KPIs, you know how to fire people, you know, how to like train people, you know, how to like really do things because so many first time founders don’t have that experience and so they’re kind of learning it on the fly. And so you want someone that can really like, compliment you in those other areas. And I think that ends up being like one of the big changes that people don’t wanna hire people that are maybe more knowledgeable than them because like, you know, the kind of imposter syndrome or whatever. But I think that ends up being like the biggest limiting factor is just that you have a cap and like, or, and what I mean that you like, you know, any entrepreneur has a cap and if you keep hiring worse people than you and training them, then they’re not, they’re gonna be a percentage of you and like, you know, maybe 50%, 60%. And, and I think if they’re not, if you’re not hiring people with like a diverse backgrounds, then your team is just kind of staying like flat. It’s not really like improving.
Kevin King:
So you gotta basically get out of your own way and set your ego to the side. And that’s, that’s, that’s the key to hitting those higher milestones and that higher growth is pulling together a team. And they, like you said, they don’t necessarily, some of the team doesn’t need to have e-com experience. They need to have more people and management experience. Totally. And system systems experience and way beyond what you may have as an entrepreneur. They’ve been doing this for, for years and they, they may be older than you, you know, if you’re young in this. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Exactly.
Kevin King:
And I think a big issue too is for a lot of people, like we said earlier, you’re working on the business, not in it is actually letting go. As when you’re the entrepreneur that started it from zero and you invested your own $10,000 of life savings and you borrowed from your uncle and you got this whole thing going and you’re robbing Peter to pay Paul you know, and eating ramen noodles and sleeping on the couch for a while, it’s hard to let, that’s your baby. And it’s hard to let that go and let other people mess with it. And I think that’s a big stumbling block a lot of entrepreneurs have in the space.
Fernando:
Totally. Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. I think the letting go is, again, because you probably don’t have good enough people or you have maybe trust issues, whatever, one of the two I guess. But like, yeah, I think it just comes down to the quality of the people that are reporting to you truthfully. But yeah, I, I think it’s, yeah, you’re totally spot on. You just kind of have to get out of the way sometimes and and, and hire the right people.
Kevin King:
Well, awesome. Well, Fernando, I really appreciate you taking some time today to, to share your story and share some of your thoughts and everything. It’s always great to talk to someone that’s had great success like you and comes from the background that you came from to build up your companies. It’s awesome having you here, man.
Fernando:
Thanks so much, Kevin. Yeah, I really appreciate it. It’s been a long time. Yeah. I think it was one of the, not necessarily super early guests, but with, with Manny back in, I dunno, probably 2017. So it’s cool to be here again.
Kevin King:
And now you, here, here you are again. So yeah, we have, you have to look up that episode. If you want to hear how Fernando was different back in 2017, go, go pull up that episode on the AM/PM Podcast archives and you can probably hear a whole totally different totally, totally, totally different story on, on that one. But that would be great to actually check that one out and then listen to this one and you know, see what may be in the future for you as you sell. If people wanted to reach out to you or find out more about you or some of the stuff that you’re doing how would they do that?
Fernando:
Yeah, I post mostly on LinkedIn, so you can just add me. Yeah, Fernando Campos or yeah, if you have any specific questions or anything, I’m happy to try to help. You can email me [email protected]. Yeah, always try to get back to people.
Kevin King:
Awesome. Appreciate your time, man. Thanks again.
Fernando:
Yeah, thanks so much Kevin. Great seeing you.
Kevin King:
I always say there’s lots of different ways to make money selling on Amazon, and Fernando and his partners are pure evidence of that. They’re not creating a true brand. They may pivot to that, like you said, but it’s not a true brand with an avatar. They’re just looking for opportunities. That’s how he sold his other two businesses. Like he talked about the home and kitchen, and that’s what they’re doing right now with their supplements company. So it’s an interesting take on a slightly different way to actually build a business on Amazon than what most people are talking about right now. But nevertheless, he’s super smart and is scaling this thing like crazy. So it’s great to having him on the episode. And my little nugget of advice this week that I’m gonna end this episode with kind of falls in line with what Fernando was talking about when he was talking about those, the stumbling blocks that a lot of sellers have when they’re trying to get to that eight or nine figure level. You know, you can’t scale what, but you can scale who you can’t scale what, but you can scale who, who you hire to take you to the next level is all the difference. Just like Fernando said, who you hire that can take you to the next level can make all the difference. Have a great weekend and we’ll see you again next week.
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